Gender ratios.

[YoriYori]

On this site, the scale seems to be more in the opposite direction. I'd say that if it isn't an even 1:1 ratio, that there may actually be a greater number of women than men here. This interests me. It's vastly different from what I've seen from the rest of the internet.

Of course, I haven't been around here long, so I could be completely wrong.

Assuming it's true, however, what do you guys think? It wouldn't be logical to assume that less men have the fetish, in my honest opinion. Rather, I think it's more likely that men would have more trouble accepting it as a part of them, and probably are more likely to repress it altogether.

Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Thoughts?

Sorry ... to return to the original question despite the interesting discussion that has developed . All I can say for my part is I feel like location and materials might play a part. Do you hang out in all different areas of the fetish?

I tend to notice the female precence a bit more, but I think that's because of where I choose to "hang out". I really like fanfic/fanart, and no matter where I go on the internets to find these things (fetish or not) it seems like most of the stuff I view is generated by women (the only exception here being a gigantic site like deviantArt - still, I've never counted but I'd be willing to bet that I follow more women than men on that site - and for some reason it seems like the art made by women appeals to me more emotionally while the art made by men seems to be more of a "I need a quick fix of female sexy right now" or just admired purely for the artistic skill displayed and not so much the feeling behind it*). I wonder why that is?

However, the few times I've visited sites or links that have fetish material featuring real people (as opposed to stories or art), it seems more generated by and geared towards men (even if the person in the video/clips is female)**. It doesn't appeal to me emotionally or sexually because and feels so mannish that I stay away.

*Note: I'm not saying men don't have ~feelings~ or produce deep art. I'm just saying I find that most of the male artists I follow, I follow because they do a good job of satisfying my "I need boobs in my face. Now." type cravings.

**It may also feel this way to me because I tend to look for female sneezing a bit more than male sneezing. Is there a lot of fetish material featuring men produced by women, or featuring men produced by men but geared towards women? I don't know.

Edited June 23, 2012 by cherry

[brokensneeze]

What would distinguish these two for you, "for female eyes" vs. "by gay men for gay men".

Male beauty meant for female eyes is just what it says on the label: a deliberate sexualization of men meant for a female audience.

Well DUH! What I meant was, how would you describe one vs. the other in clear, non-self-referential language!

It may well be that "gay men and straight women want very different things," but can you describe them without turning what straight women want into some mystery sauce that only another normatively female mind could identify?

Sometimes I think the problem is that what men like is quite straightforward to separate from the male perspective--just take generic human/animal beauty, i.e. the curvaceous softness that makes puppies and kids cute, or that makes a sleek panther or whatever look graceful--and add boobs and a small waist. There are some beautiful males who also seem to fit this template, for instance that guy Baek Hyun who someone posted here the other day. But other forms of male beauty seem much more about attributed characteristics--strength, protectiveness, competence, etc. As a straight male who (in just a pure aesthetic sense) values boyishness in myself and other men, I guess it's hard to see beauty in many men, even if you take out the attraction aspect.

To respond to Vetinari's comment about my supposed "good taste", I will say that what I don't like about the "forced sexiness" is not that it's connected to casual sex (which I have nothing against), rather I find that a woman having a strong cultural awareness of her sexuality--and passing it through that lens--detracts from her attractiveness. I'm much more drawn to a woman just being her.

As an analogy, one can have an aerodynamic toy airplane that flies in a graceful, agile, smooth trajectory. If you were to attach strings to the plane, you could probably pull it in a way that makes the flight path look more amazing, but then you wouldn't really be admiring the plane. Even for a plane that's sleek on its own, just the mere fact of seeing strings pulling it would make it seem less remarkable. That's kind of how I feel when a woman tries deliberately to act sexy.

[Vetinari]

To respond to Vetinari's comment about my supposed "good taste", I will say that what I don't like about the "forced sexiness" is not that it's connected to casual sex (which I have nothing against), rather I find that a woman having a strong cultural awareness of her sexuality--and passing it through that lens--detracts from her attractiveness. I'm much more drawn to a woman just being her.

My brain feels quite blank at the moment and I'm not sure how the context of casual sex got mixed up with this because I was really referring to falsely tittilating women in porn in the section where I stated that I thought you had good taste. I personally am not into casual sex, but I have nothing against it per se.

The original question has been asked many times before, and I can see that this side discussion has rather taken over. I have no idea whether there is a real gender bias. I'd like to point out that there are, or have been, two other forums that I have been aware of, one of which catered much more towards men, the other much more towards women. The male oriented one (Sneezing Babes) was never all that busy on the occasions I have looked, and I am not keen to go exploring again, because sometimes after such exploration I have found that things begin to go wrong with my computer. I think that this particular forum has a very strong social aspect as well as a sexual one, and that does probably help to keep it alive and active because it doesn't serve only one single purpose. There may be some gender bias, but as has been shown, that aspect has changed over time, so whether the current line-up is really representitive (or indeed how many of the current members are identified correctly and/or actually exist) is anyone's guess.

[VoOs]

Well DUH! What I meant was, how would you describe one vs. the other in clear, non-self-referential language! It may well be that "gay men and straight women want very different things," but can you describe them without turning what straight women want into some mystery sauce that only another normatively female mind could identify?

Describe the difference? I don't think it can be done, since there's obviously no universal taste shared by all straight women or all gay men. Besides, there being a difference wasn't really my point. It doesn't really matter to me how men put themselves out there and try to be sexy for women, as long as they do try. It's the inequality in conscious effort that bothers me. When talking about this I'm mostly refering to the kind of sexualization you see in media and porn, mind, because of how it reflects, preserves, and has the power to change norms in society. To put it simply: I'd like to see more men being sexualized in the media. Because they got it, and they should be allowed to flaunt it as well!

(I'm sorry if I'm not very good at getting my point across here. I'm terrible at debating in English. )

[Salamander]

What would distinguish these two for you, "for female eyes" vs. "by gay men for gay men".

Male beauty meant for female eyes is just what it says on the label: a deliberate sexualization of men meant for a female audience.

Well DUH! What I meant was, how would you describe one vs. the other in clear, non-self-referential language!

It may well be that "gay men and straight women want very different things," but can you describe them without turning what straight women want into some mystery sauce that only another normatively female mind could identify?

Lol, if we could invent a "mystery sauce" which can be poured over men to make them attractive to women, all our problems would be solved!

I would recommend reading any of the articles on the 'filament' website, or perhaps googling "male and female gaze" or "male homosexual gaze" in cinema. There are some great books about it.

In very, very vague terms, an example of the general trend is that lots of gay male erotic photography really focus on individual body parts, like cocks and assholes. Women tend to respond better to images of whole bodies in context.

Loosely. I'm not talking about what bodies gay men and straight women find attractive. That's individual. As you say, all gay men and straight women have different tastes in men. The question of gaze is about how bodies are presented.

... and this isn't really the place. Go ask an academic or a female erotic photographer, or do a course on women and the media. Watch some female produced straight porn and some queer porn and then tell me it's exactly the same. If you're so interested, see also those links I shared in a previous post Or message me and I'll provide some links to academic sources.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Salamander

[brokensneeze]

It doesn't really matter to me how men put themselves out there and try to be sexy for women, as long as they do try. It's the inequality in conscious effort that bothers me.

See this is just what I was pointing out--women seem sexier to me the less they are obviously trying to be. I'm attracted to spontaneity, innocence, fluidity, etc., as well as to specific beautiful body parts. I'd think people on a forum such as this would be especially poised to understand such a concept, seeing as they are attracted to something (a sneeze) that is highly spontaneous and non-deliberate.

Now, that doesn't mean women aren't trying intentionally in "hidden" ways to be sexy, for instance through makeup and dress. In fact, I readily admit that many women's clothes are more beautiful color- and design-wise than many male clothes--us men are mostly stuck with solid, drab colors. I wish there were more equality in this regard, such that a man could buy a lemon yellow polka-dotted shirt made for the male body, and not be presumed gay by some just for wearing it.

an example of the general trend is that lots of gay male erotic photography really focus on individual body parts, like cocks and assholes. Women tend to respond better to images of whole bodies in context.

I see. While I like to see the entire body, it goes along with my science-nerd nature to also want to break down and analyze that beauty in terms of its component parts. By "in context", I assume you mean in the context of explicit sexual acts? For me, I actually prefer if the body is in an everyday or neutral context, and I can fill in the sexual part with my own imagination.

[count tiszula]

Golly, what a lot of different directions this is going in! Anyway, when I first joined the forum, it was much more male in personnel; I almost think that the great rise in female membership was beginning in that period. And at that time there was almost no artwork, and I believe much less fiction.

Personally , I was astonished to find any women on the forum, as I had been brought up with that rather strange view of female sexuality which I think was general then, viz that women are pure soulful beings who would have no interest in any of the more interesting aspects of sensuality, while men are all inherently wicked and subject to every vice and type of naughtiness known [and of course I knew that there would be top sneezeporn when I first reached the internet because I realised always that I was far from alone in my interest].

I seem to recall that that Katherine Gates was briefly a member here years ago for the purpose of studying us. I do remember that she predicted that we would expel the blowers and hankiemen for being horrific perverts, so she was on the wrong track there.

I am largely in agreement with Brokensneeze; I far prefer to admire the sheer gorgeousness of girls who look natural, barely made up if at all, simply dressed [to reveal their fascinating charms], and generally ars est celare artem; and I myself was or am somewhat bisexual. In many ways the sorts of gentlemen I liked were, I realise, very androgynous, but then in my youth many celebs were and still are, from Marc Bolan to Donny Osmond and his modern sneezy lookalike J Bieber. I still don't know whether what women want is really the muscular type who in my youth really didn't exist at all. Every time I ask women what they want they say how they hate pretty boys and love ugly ones, but it never seems to have done me any good.

Of course in the 60s and 70s a yellow polka dot shirt was nothing; you were no one if you didn't have a waisted scarlet frilly shirt with ethnic swirly motifs.

[tma]

I know that I'm WAY late to reply to my statement about not agreeing about the women's sexiness thing. My reaction was similiar to what Vet talked about. I honestly dont think of myself as being attractive (I mean.... I don't think that I'm Repulsive, but... I'm just sort of .... there). Even if I think that *Maybe* a *might* be flirting- I like it- but I still automatically go to the place of that I'm imagining it and they are just friendly, or that they are a person who flirts with EVERYONE. Soooo...

Oh and

We women are STARVED for men being sexy for our viewing pleasure (and listening pleasure, for that matter...). The male body is a beautiful thing and I love looking at it, but it's very rare to find male beauty to marvel at that was actually meant for female eyes, and not "by gay men for gay men". Society still objectifies the female body far more than the male body, and some women may perhaps act like the sight of a stripping man is weird or gross to them, but that's only because they are not used to being offered eye-candy in that way. I'm not saying this goes for everyone, but you know what I mean. Of course women drool at sexy men, of course we want them to try and be sexy for us. You give some, and you get some. That's how it really should be. But, alas, we still live in a society where it's the women's job to be sexy and provide the pr0n, while the men can just "grab and go".

YES!!!

I'm shy w/ stuff... and some things I might think, "Ewww!!"- I would say it, but I wouldn't go for it. I am someone who likes things "old school" a little. Subtleness and seduction. *However*, this being said- just because I'm someone who Isn't *OMG- Give it to me NOW!!! doesn't mean that I don't want or crave certain things." I think that it seems like for more women (particularly coming from a certain age and/or background) that asking or admitting what you want is surrounded by a bit of shame. Sometimes it feels like as a woman that it is either that you want big, muscular adult artists dancing around and things that are more "male gaze oriented" - (that was Really an interesting theory btw) that have been adapted; or... that you want... nothing. And ummm.... I sort of think that there are lots of different concepts of sexuality that people desire and crave in similar quantities, even though the "qualitities" are different.

[Heavy-Chevy]

Wow, some really though-provoking posts here. But I'd like to add my two cents to the topic.

I can't co-sign this hard enough, oh my god. Especially the part about how some heterosexual women, when presented with male sexiness, will actually go "gross!" and act weirded out.

I went to a strip club once that catered exclusively to women. The men were to DIE for. A few of the women in the group I was in, however, kept acting totally squicked out. A dancer would come on stage and start gyrating and removing clothing, and these women would bury their faces in their hands and turn away, or say "oh my god" in the same negative tone they probably reserve for seeing a dead cockroach in the kitchen. I don't even know why they came if they didn't want to oogle naked men. I was up there by the stage like a champ, snapping dollars into g-strings and getting sexy hot mankisses up my neck. Unf that was a good night.

This perfectly illustrates just how society doesn't value male sexuality nearly as much as female sexuality. I just think it's a stupid double standard... women can act sexy and talk openly about their sexuality and society celebrates it. But if a man tries to be open in the same way, he's seen as sleazy or piggish. And it's especially true for older men. I mean now society is finally beginning to notice some older women as cougars and is presenting that as cool and hot. But if an older man tries to be sexy, he gets the typical reaction of Eww, Gross, and of course...CREEPY. I can sort of understand that because most older men aren't really worth looking at anyway. But when some women cringe at the sight a of naked good looking man, I can't help but ask why?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Heavy-Chevy

[Vetinari]

But if an older man tries to be sexy, he gets the typical reaction of Eww, Gross, and of course...CREEPY.

I think it maybe depends on how he goes about it!

most older men aren't really worth looking at anyway.

I beg to differ.

And... older women are allowed to be sexy and older men aren't? Hollywood doesn't seem to veiw things that way.

[tma]

I mean now society is finally beginning to notice some older women as cougars and is presenting that as cool and hot. But if an older man tries to be sexy, he gets the typical reaction of Eww, Gross, and of course...CREEPY.

Depends on the age difference to me. Maybe I['m a total prude, but I think that a 40 or 50 something openly hitting on a 20 something (or older teen) is a bit sleazy. I know... I know... age is just a number.... but.... I don't know, Anyone young enough to be your child.... not so much. Btw- I feel like that w/ women as well as men. It's just that I tend to see it in real life a LOT more w/ males than females.

Although... I'll admit that with "sharking" or even sexual harrassment- you don't often hear of female to male. I've wondered about whether or not it is because the females are more subtle... or that the guys just eat it up and don't care. I tend to think maybe the latter one. *hides*

I hope that I haven't utterly offended anyone.

[Salamander]

Wow, some really though-provoking posts here. But I'd like to add my two cents to the topic.

I can't co-sign this hard enough, oh my god. Especially the part about how some heterosexual women, when presented with male sexiness, will actually go "gross!" and act weirded out.

I went to a strip club once that catered exclusively to women. The men were to DIE for. A few of the women in the group I was in, however, kept acting totally squicked out. A dancer would come on stage and start gyrating and removing clothing, and these women would bury their faces in their hands and turn away, or say "oh my god" in the same negative tone they probably reserve for seeing a dead cockroach in the kitchen. I don't even know why they came if they didn't want to oogle naked men. I was up there by the stage like a champ, snapping dollars into g-strings and getting sexy hot mankisses up my neck. Unf that was a good night.

This perfectly illustrates just how society doesn't value male sexuality nearly as much as female sexuality. I just think it's a stupid double standard... women can act sexy and talk openly about their sexuality and society celebrates it. But if a man tries to be open in the same way, he's seen as sleazy or piggish. And it's especially true for older men. I mean now society is finally beginning to notice some older women as cougars and is presenting that as cool and hot. But if an older man tries to be sexy, he gets the typical reaction of Eww, Gross, and of course...CREEPY. I can sort of understand that because most older men aren't really worth looking at anyway. But when some women cringe at the sight a of naked good looking man, I can't help but ask why?

I think "celebrated" is the wrong word, but you're right, there's a horrible double standard. I think it's more that women's sexuality has been constructed by our culture to involve appearing, and being looked at. There's less of a celebration of women acting sexually (except in porn), and slut shaming is very real. At the same time, we don't value the way men appear sexually. They can act upon women, their needs and desires are acknowledged, but naked men are generally comedy value. Sigh.

The thing about women cringing away from naked men is really sad. *shakes head* I suppose it's because we're just not used to seeing naked men in the same volume as we see naked women. (Think about the ratio of ads using scantily clad women, compared to scantily clad men). That and women are warned that being sexually aggressive makes them sluts. I doubt those women were responding consciously but that message is very pervasive in our culture. Men who want sex are studs, who score. Women who want sex are sluts.* Women are expected to appear sexual but not to BE sexual. I guess a lifetime of the mainstream media telling you that women who appreciate men are dirty and bad will do that to you. I don't think it's something wrong with those women, it's something wrong with the culture.

You're right. it's a damn shame, for men and women both.

*I don't think these cultural tides are RIGHT. I'm just acknowledging them.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Salamander